Anon580 said:

Katie said:

Ben, you could share your statistics links in a new thread, and it will be easier to comprehend what you are saying and it would also lend validity to your perception. If you can include how more people of any race have lost jobs during this recession/depression, using numbers and percentages, overall percent of population they represent, and so forth, what kind of work they were doing, etc., that would be insightful as well. Scientifically based statistics from reputable sources speak to me, rhetoric does not. Rhetoric is simply rhetoric.

 

Katie, you cannot invalidate a persons perspective, the thing stands for itself.  

 

stamperben said:

I just want to add that the perception out in middle America is that the Occupy movement is about a bunch of whiny students who just want their loans forgiven. To combat that there needs to be inclusion of ALL the 99%. Not just talking about it, but actual outreach to them. The elderly who face Social Security and Medicare cuts; the working poor who are living paycheck to paycheck and continually fall behind; the unions who can be a huge asset in organizational help; even the New Black Panther Party. There are many community organizations who need to hear what the aims of the Occupiers are, and they need to hear from the Occupiers themselves, not from the media.

Time is running short. It is time to act.

 

Tim Cast from NYC has an excellent broadcast on ustream.  

http://wearetheother99.com/  https://twitter.com/#!/Timcast

 

This thread actually refers to exactly the fact of separation in the movement due to poor quality communication of ideas that if presented in respectful and inclusive CONTEXT would strenghten the bonds of community.

 

Seshata, 

When you use the term White Supremacy you invoke alienation from people of the white race.  

Anon580, can you name the first non-white person in the western hemisphere that was classified as a Racist by others?  Name one that you may recollect.  When did the victims of White Supremacy Racism become known as Racist?

I state White Supremacy Racism so that ones may not conveniently forget what functional Racism look, sound, taste, smell and feel like.

Why should ones worry about being 'alienated' by the White Race [which is the only Race] when White Culture has been one of narcissism, anxiety and alienation? 

If people need Truth and Reconciliation which involves confession and forgiveness, then we can all Burn the Race Card.

Anon580 said:

First non-white person in the western hemisphere classified as a racist by others would probably be Pocahontas' father. lol

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://occupyhouston.org/forum…..cy-racism/

Stmaper….all whitey is no good….don't matter waer you wer raised…just ask Shesata…

Shesata for prezidint!

Post edited 10:31 am – November 26, 2011 by seshata

stamperben said:

Katie said:

Ben, you could share your statistics links in a new thread, and it will be easier to comprehend what you are saying and it would also lend validity to your perception. If you can include how more people of any race have lost jobs during this recession/depression, using numbers and percentages, overall percent of population they represent, and so forth, what kind of work they were doing, etc., that would be insightful as well. Scientifically based statistics from reputable sources speak to me, rhetoric does not. Rhetoric is simply rhetoric.

 

We all have our perceptions on what we have witnessed in our own life. What I have seen have been vast improvements. However, perhaps with the kind of work environments or people you know in them first hand, you have experienced, you have not. Possibly what kind of sector they are working in makes a difference, and whether or not they chose to pursue higher education or not. There are many ways of seeing things, life is complex. If one person knows mostly well educated people vs another knowing mostly high school graduates that won't be able to easily get ahead because they elected to not pursue their education, they will have differing perspective. The person that knows mostly well educated people and has worked for a large company many years easily knows a great diversity of people, in regards to race and religion. And these women and minorities are continuing to be preferred for grooming purposes, possibly due to government regulation, and they tend to be more challenging to find among the older generations with the experience level needed. That experience level makes a huge difference in how quickly change happens in big companies, and sometimes experience is sacrificed to meet government requirements, and someone can be overwhelmed by what they are thrown into as a result. That is not fair to them or the company, no matter how anyone tries to make it work. One does not gain experience overnight….it takes years. Some companies plan their profit 50 years in advance. Some plan their employees career moves no less than a year in advance…and some several years out, just to develop or groom for experience.

 

 The person that knows mostly blue collar people may not know a great diversity unless they have deliberately reached out of their factory or shop or church or neighborhood, or as we said in the expat circle may not "get out of the expat ghetto," to create another perspective that is more inclusive of all people.

 

People that are blue collar, lower to middle socioeconomic class are suffering greatly at this time, no matter their race. People suffering….no matter who, it matters! If we start playing 'the blame game' or 'I am a victim' or 'my people got it worse than you' we won't get anywhere….no different than the expat community saying "I lived in this place and so I had it ten times worse than you." Fact of the matter is, everyone in life has their share of advantages and disadvantages, and we can never really conclude what is worse when comparing apples to oranges. But if that is our focus, 'who has it worst' we are spinning our wheels.

 

If we can not problem solve by focusing on the economy to create jobs for everyone, and instead focus on race, then we will only make a bad situation worse or spin our wheels. If you don't beleive me, start by reading economics books at the library, reading reputable financial magazines and watching financials shows that refer to the top professionals….you may even begin to realize a chunk of them are not caucasion or even born in the USA.

I'm having a hard time figuring out just exactly why, but I find my self feeling as if I am being condescended to.

Granted, I am only a 56 year old high school graduate who HAS worked blue collar jobs his entire life, but I do know PhD's who couldn't find their way out of a phone booth for all their educations.

But if I am sensing the condensation I can only imagine what people of color are feeling. And what their reaction to it might be.

You speak of perceptions Katie, let me tell you of some of mine. I grew up in the ghetto of East Oakland. Do a Google search on "Oakland killing fields" and you'll find the area. This year SO FAR there have been over 100 murders of young black youth in Oakland. Of course it wasn't anywhere near that bad from the years 1955 to 1974 when I left. But it was a very poor area even then, the housing project was one street over, and the cause of death back then wasn't gunfire but was the needle of heroin. And let me be clear, I was a white boy growing up there.

When my buddy's little brother looked at me with defiance in his eyes and sang the James Brown line "I'm Black and I'm proud!" should I have said "But that's so divisive, I can't understand that"? No, that wasn't my reaction for I could have an inkling of where it came from. I knew personally of the banks redlining areas of town to keep people of color out. Back then it was the north/south street of Foothill Blvd. East of it was white, west of it was black and brown. Of  course with the Civil Rights Act in 1965 the redlining ended, officially anyway, but not always in practice. But I got out of there, and so did many of the kids I grew up with, both black and brown. After all, who wants to live in the killing fields?

But why Katie did you write it is necessary to pursue higher education in order to easily get ahead? That is chauvinism in all its glory! That's the problem, this country needs to supply an education to all its youth so that they can pursue their dreams and live happy lives. Isn't that what's written into the founding documents of the country? Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness? Why is it needed to start life in debt or be among the privileged few?

It was written above that the term "White Supremacy" invokes alienation of whites. Well, facts is facts, and it isn't necessary to have a degree from a university to understand them. The history of this country HAS to be addressed by any force that wants to engage in true progressive change. Glossing over it in the hopes it will go away plays straight into the objectives of the 1%.

The fact that all people in the 99% are suffering is obvious. One thing Seshata said needs to be paid attention to:

There must be Truth and Reconciliation in order to Burn the Race Card to heal racial division created by the smartest and most powerful White Power Elitist 'wardens' to the detriment of prison guard 'whites' and inmate 'non-whites'.

We must All cease being the pawns of the White Supremacists{1%} Race Game.

How can ones Occupy Wall Street without Occupying White Supremacy.

Truth and reconciliation. Ceasing to be the pawns of the 1%. We must, and by "we" I mean the whites in the movement, must indeed occupy white supremacy, occupy the inherent racism we do have.

stamperben, please reference  the Solidarity Statement Adoped by Consensus 0n 11-09-11 below: 

http://occupyhouston.org/forum…..statement/

OCCUPYHOUSTON Internal Solidarity Statement:

This is a living document. As the Occupy Houston community, we have the right and responsibility to edit this document on an ongoing basis. We welcome feedback and new ideas.

We are the 99%, and our task is to unify the 99%. We are a society in which many are diligently seeking to resolve issues of various forms of oppression.As the Occupy Houston community, we will consciously and urgently work on
dismantling these systems of oppression even within our movement. We are working on creating a community where everyone’s rights are respected, protected, and treated equally. We all have different levels of privilege that
we strive to acknowledge and educate ourselves about in order to ensure that these privileges are not used to oppress others.

We want to have an inclusive atmosphere of ideas in which we do not police each other’s thoughts and one in which we reason together without intimidating words or actions. If a conflict arises it should, if possible, be
settled through democratic discussion or debate; otherwise, it should be settled with the help of a Conflict Resolution Team, a Support Team, or both, if necessary.  We are dedicated to reasoning about and resolving issues in our community including:

Discrimination based on Age, on Class, on Culture, on Disability, on Experiences with the Justice System, on Gender, on Hetero-Normativity, on Homo-Phobia, on Immigration Status, on Race, on Religious or Non-religious Intolerance,
on Trans-Phobia, and Discrimination based on Weight.

Adoped by Consensus 11-09-11

stamperben, when people understand the Internal Solidarity Statement they will immediately recognize that as a group OccupyHouston has begun a legitimate process of Truth and Reconciliation for all of the catagories listed, including  Discrimination based on Age, on Class, on Culture, on Disability, on Experiences with the Justice System, on Gender, on Hetero-Normativity, on Homo-Phobia, on Immigration Status, on Race, on Religious or Non-religious Intolerance, on Trans-Phobia, and Discrimination based on Weight. 

However, if I had introduced any of the other catagories as a topic of discussion would I have received the same sort of vehement opposition as was seen when I introduce the catagory of Race and specifically addressing how White Supremacy impacts each particular catagory?

I have been told how the subject of White Supremacy is divisive, over-broad and offensive by many White People while many other White People agree that we should understand what White Supremacy is and how it works in all areas, including Economics, Education, Entertainment, Labor, Law, Politics, Religion, Sex and War. 

My sister asked why would I bring up such a topic in the OccupyMovement.  As an attorney she believe that the topic is inflammatory and not conducive to a peaceful dialogue given the nature of our fragmented society.  My only thoughts were "If not now….when.  Why put off for tomorrow that which needs to be done today?"  My sister's concern was mostly for my personal safety but not the safety of the nation as a whole.  In a way, she was suggesting to me that discussing White Supremacy as the only functional Racism in America could be dangerous.  Her emotions may had blinded her sense of logic and reasoning abilities even though I may be incorrect. 

Yet, how many people thought about the injustices  produced by the occupation of indigenous people's land, by the enslavement of generations of children and  by the restrictions of civil rights before people finally acted to produce Justice in those areas?  Should those pioneers of Liberty have waited for a more appropriate time or did they prove that times appointed by themselves were essential to those paradigms? 

Joel Olson pointed out that creating a 99% requires putting the struggles of people of color at the center of our conversations and demands rather than relegating them to the margins. To fight against school segregation, colonization, redlining, and anti-immigrant attacks is to fight against everything Wall Street stands for, everything the Tea Party stands for, everything this government stands for. It is to fight against the white democracy, which stands at the path to a free society like a troll at the bridge. Occupy everything, attack the white democracy.

—-{The white democracy has two contradictory aspects to it.  On the one hand, all whites are considered equal (even as the poor are subordinated to the rich and women are subordinated to men). On the other, every white person is considered superior to every person of color. It’s democracy for white folks, but tyranny for everyone else. http://www.bringtheruckus.org/…..node%2F146}

While no pamphlet can capture everything a nationwide movement can or should do to undermine the white democracy and left colorblindness, below is a short list of questions people might consider asking in movement debates. These questions were developed from actual debates in occupations throughout the U.S.

•Do speakers urge us “get beyond” race? Are they defensive and dismissive of
demands for racial justice?

•If speakers urge developing “close working relationships with the police,”
do they consider how police terrorize Black, Latino, Native, and undocumented
communities? Do they consider how police have attacked occupation encampments?

•If speakers urge us to hold banks accountable, do they encourage us to focus
on redlining, predatory lending, and subprime mortgages, which have decimated
Black and Latino neighborhoods?

•If speakers urge the cancellation of debts, do they mean for things like
electric and heating bills as well as home mortgages and college loans?

•If speakers urge the halting of foreclosures, do they acknowledge that they
take place primarily in segregated neighborhoods, and do they propose to start
there?

•If speakers urge the creation of more jobs, do they acknowledge that many
communities of color have already been in chronic “recessions” for decades, and
do they propose to start from there?

Attack capitalist power—attack the white democracy.  Build the 99%!

People of color at the center! No more left colorblindness!

stamperben said:

Can/is the left color blind?

Is it painful to actually realize that because of forces outside yourself that you indeed are part of what's been known as white supremacy?

Has that supremacy been at the center of division in the entire history of this nation?

The answer to both is "Yes."

Is it time to address that history in order to facilitate any true meaningful change, not only in the hearts of the people as a whole, but in changing the structure of how this country is run?

Again, the answer is yes.

Unfortunately what looks good on paper and what makes the mind in a gathering feel good does not always translate to change. Real heart change.

I am an outsider to what's going down in Tranquility park. I live way outside the loop, way outside the beltway and outside what will end up as the grand parkway. I can not make it to a GA there in downtown. So I don't know the specific dynamics of what y'all are experiencing. But from what I am reading in these forums y'all got a lot of work ahead of you.

stamperben, please do not forget about the White Democracy.  My Topic of Discussion "White Supremacy Racism" and I have been under attack  for almost 2 weeks.  Where were the moderaters and administrators while many were urging me “get beyond” Race and while many were threatening, defensive and dismissive of demands for racial justice unless they were controlling the discussions like Cassie : 

http://occupyhouston.org/2011/…..th-530-pm/ ,

November 9th, 2011 · Cassie · Events, Women's MeetingsComments Off

"We shouldn’t expect most white-males to arrive at occupyhouston already knowing the motivations for an all women’s breakout group.  For me, it took seeing several presentations by queer and people of color caucuses to “get it.” At occupyhouston when the idea of a feminism meeting first came up, many guys objected.  A feminism meeting with those males present might not even get started, and it made perfect sense for those who identify as female to choose to meet on their own.

Breakout groups inside larger groups sometimes choose to limit their participation to only women, blacks, people of color, sex-workers, rape-victims, or etc.   These types of groups form because when non white males try to explore their thoughts in an open group, they are often interrupted, shushed, mocked, dominated, criticized, or otherwise shut-down. I do not think the response of occupyhouston should amount to “man up, deal with it on your own, and come back whenever you are ready.”

There is no equivalency here to an all-white breakout group, and comparisons to that effect are odious.  Oppressed groups in our society are not the same as dominant groups and we shouldn’t maintain an unequal status quo on the basis of so-called equality.  Black prejudice against whites is not the same thing as white prejudice against blacks.  The concept of black power is not an equivalent to the concept of white power. Sex-workers do not get the same respect in our society as college students.  Critiques of patriarchy are not the same as critiques of women.  The 99% has real inequities in it, and they don’t go away by pretending we all have equal power.

If members of non-dominant groups often don’t feel comfortable to speak as much, or at all, in wide-open meetings, then they need other sorts of meetings to work on it.  The process of developing ideas often requires a less pressured environment for collaborative dialog.  Creating spaces where women don’t have to worry about being shut down by insensitive men can help build up the strength needed to dialog later with those men on a better footing.  Sometimes the breakout groups start off as exclusive, and then can come to re-enter dialog with the larger group on their own terms.

There are exclusive associations taking place all the time at occupyhouston. There is no rule against such things.  When David Rovics played a concert there, it wasn’t open for anyone to go up and play any instrument with him.  A musician choosing who is in his band is no more problematic than a group of women deciding they want to meet alone.

White males often assume that their presence does nothing to stop women and people of color from feeling comfortable talking about their concerns and their histories. This fact alone explains why they are sometimes asked to not attend.  I have been part of hundreds of types of groups and movements in my life and there has never been one in which white males didn’t speak for more than their even share of time.  Those who would seek to deny women a chance to meet without them are obstructing the creation of a space where those who are used to speaking less get to speak more.

There are many who seem to acknowledge that we live in a white patriarchy where women may well not get their full thoughts out in the presence of men, but don’t seem to be open to creative solutions to bring balance.  It should be obvious that women will not say all kinds of things about feminism if there are guys present, especially if they are insensitive guys.  We have a long way to go, and we will never get there if women’s right to free association isn’t respected."——Nick Cooper

stamperben, I can not imagine what the comments may have looked like after Cassie made the above posting if the COMMENTS were ON. 

Cassie spoke of Racism in her own terms but when I did the same I witnessed the effects of White Democracy and Left Colorblindness.

Just to be clear, not every non-white person shares the view of "white supremacy racism." Although we share the commonality of being non-white, we dont all share the same experiences. My reality will undoubtedly be different than others' reality, and theirs will be different from my reality. I know that to be true. 

Because of that I must say that it is not the message or the messenger, but how  the message is being articulated that turns myself and others off to this discussion.

Creating a 99% requires putting the struggles of people at the core of the discussion… including whites, non-whites, poor, rich, educated, not educated, religious, non religious. People.

Historically speaking, no one is better and no one is worse. We are all people.

Also, I still believe that having a moderator (or group of moderators) is laughable. OWS allows for everything to be posted. Yeah, everything. Occupy Houston, not so much. Even relegating conversations to a trash bin seems to ring more like a Kommissar than a progressive group. This is the 99%.

You are all racists.

Everyone of you. Yes you too.

Now lets talk about the environment, or economics, or maybe even education.

i have zero interest in racism or white supremacy